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Greg Prince and Jason Fry
Faith and Fear in Flushing made its debut on Feb. 16, 2005, the brainchild of two longtime friends and lifelong Met fans.

Greg Prince discovered the Mets when he was 6, during the magical summer of 1969. He is a Long Island-based writer, editor and communications consultant. Contact him here.

Jason Fry is a Brooklyn writer whose first memories include his mom leaping up and down cheering for Rusty Staub. Check out his other writing here.

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No Shadow, Only Doubt

The 2010 Mets emerged from their hole in the ground one final time Sunday and I got as close to them as I could and looked hard to see their shadow. I sought the sight of the shadow of a doubt to which I’d been clinging through ever darkening times.

I kept searching for a sliver of a reason to continue to believe this Mets team’s season was not practicably over. If there was the thinnest shaft of light shining on them, any hint that implied they were still part of the conversation when it came to talking playoffs, I’d tell you to keep hope alive, keep your spirits up, keep the faith.

The shadow, however, completely disappeared over the course of nine innings on a brilliantly sunny afternoon in Philadelphia. By the end of the day I spent at Citizens Bank Park, I saw nothing — nothing that indicated any chance whatsoever that the 2010 Mets will play a meaningful game across their final 51 scheduled contests.

There is no shadow of a doubt for these Mets anymore. The last shred of it was overshadowed by a road trip during which they lost two of three to the first-place team in their division and two of three to the second-place team in their division. A third-place team that wants to be in the same league as the teams ahead of them has to win at least one of those series.

This third-place team did not. Thus, I can report with the certainty of Staten Island Chuck on Groundhog Day that the competitive aspirations of this Met season have been thoroughly eclipsed…eclipsed by the Braves, eclipsed by the Phillies, eclipsed by a Wild Card mob scene and eclipsed by six dreary weeks when these Mets played 36 baseball games and lost 24 of them.

The forecast: Seven additional weeks of winter, starting 7:10 Tuesday night at Citi Field.

Fifty-one games of baseball are still 51 games of baseball, and I will partake in as many of them as I can, just as I have the previous 111 — I’ll be at the first of them, in fact. But it’s different now. I won’t say there’s no sense of purpose, but the purpose has changed. The stakes have changed. The standings have changed. When the Mets began the road trip that nailed their 2010 coffin shut, they trailed Atlanta by 6½ games. They come home from their journey 9 games out. Not taking a series and losing ground? That’s not what a team that plans to make use of its August does.

The Mets have done nothing with their August. They did nothing with their July and they let a promising June curdle. They may have their shortcomings, but it wasn’t foretold they’d be a .333 ballclub for 22.2% of the season. That’s 12-24. Extrapolate that out to the whole year, and that’s 54-108. That’s not a contender. That’s a disaster.

Which is what they’ve been since June 28. Why I thought they’d pull decisively out of that state on August 2 or August 3 or clear up to the top of the ninth inning on August 8 I do not know, though I suspect it had something to do with their record prior to June 29: 43-32, a half-game from the division lead and two games in front of all comers for the Wild Card. This was after they’d taken four of six from Detroit and Minnesota, not long after they’d taken six of six from Baltimore and Cleveland.

The Mets should have put in for a transfer to the A.L. Central — for themselves and for the Orioles. It was the only way they weren’t going to become what they became in 2010: a disaster.

But they did have that one final shot in my mind Sunday. Sure it was against Roy Halladay, but I looked at it this way: the Phillies would have to do what they had to do against R.A. Dickey. And for a while there, both lineups were doing unto each other’s top-flight pitcher what seemed unlikely when the game began. The Mets got to Halladay early, and it was beautiful. Jose Reyes hadn’t heard Roy Halladay is unbeatable, because he hit him like he was using a fraternity paddle.

Sadly, Jose fielded his position like he was using a frying pan.

The defense let down R.A. Dickey once the Mets staked him to a 2-0 lead, but for the only time since he’s been a Met savior, it is accurate to say R.A. Dickey let the Mets down. The early margin was obliterated, the Phillies were up by four, Citizens Bank was in full yahoo mode — which doesn’t take much to achieve — and the countdown was on to end the Met season.

Strangely, they hung in there. After Dickey joined the ranks of the dearly departed (from the mound, that is), the Met pen stiffened and the mostly young, mostly homegrown Mets eventually went after Roy Halladay like he was Roy Lee Jackson. They took back one run in the sixth and what appeared to be a dead issue showed signs of life — we were only down by three. And then, the seventh…the last inning in which the 2010 Mets played for something and almost succeeded.

Five Mets in a row did something productive off one of the best pitchers in baseball, the theoretically immovable object in their path. Fernando Martinez (leadoff single); Josh Thole (double); Ruben Tejada (fielder’s choice RBI groundout to short); Chris Carter (pinch RBI double); and Reyes (walk) resisted the inevitability of Halladay. Their combined efforts left the Mets down by one run, with first and second, one out and the consistently clutch Angel Pagan up.

If the 2010 Mets were ever going to extend their season, this was going to be the moment. It is as much a comment on the progress of Pagan as it is on the offensive futility of his teammates — especially David Wright, who has driven more Lincolns than runners home — that there was nobody I wanted up there with everything on the line than Angel.

But Angel flied out to center. I wished it farther than it flew, but even in the Citizens Bank bandbox, wishes and fly balls can only travel so far.

The once great Carlos Beltran then struck out to allow Roy Halladay to escape with a lead. Pedro Feliciano and Manny Acosta followed up on the stellar work of Raul Valdes and Hisanori Takahashi and kept the Phillies from increasing their advantage. The notoriously mediocre Phillie bullpen appeared to give us a potential toe in the door in the eighth and ninth, but Ryan Madson was perfect in the eighth and Brad Lidge, despite Thole’s leadoff single and subsequent advancement to second and third, didn’t yield a run in the ninth.

We needed that run. We didn’t get it.

We needed this game. We didn’t get it.

We needed this series. We didn’t get it.

We needed a lot. We got very little.

And now it’s nine games out with 51 to play and two golden chances to not so much make a statement but just whisper “We’re not dead yet” gone by the wayside.

When those opportunities were tossed, there, too, went 2010, a surprisingly pleasant year until it became surprising how unpleasant it had grown…which was before it stopped being at all surprising that it was such a disaster.

The Mets are done except for 51 games they are slated to play. It’s exponentially better than nothing, but not nearly as good as we briefly dreamed it could be.


As for being in Philadelphia, I wasn’t there to personally certify the time of death for the last remote possibility of Met contention — 4:08 PM — but for a much happier occasion that my wife and I were tickled to be a part of. Sunday was the 14th birthday of FAFIF favorite Ross Chapman, and his parents threw him quite a party, taking over a slice of the lovely Hall of Fame Club Deck at Citizens Bank and making everything about the day absolutely wonderful, save for two details:

1) The outcome of the game as described above.

2) The presence in Philadelphia of Phillies fans, which is hardly the fault of Ross, Sharon or Kevin Chapman.

Citizens Bank Park is a whole other story from this particular contest, and I’m pretty certain we’ll get to it on a future Flashback Friday, but I will reiterate from previous trips that I am a fan of that ballpark and how it is operated. Except for attracting Phillies fans to Phillies games, they do everything right.

Speaking of the Citizens Bank customer base, my experience with multiple individuals Sunday indicates to me they lack the ability to enjoy good fortune in what one might quaintly refer to as a sportsmanlike fashion. Thus, I’d like to take a moment to answer a few questions that were thrown at me in the course of Stephanie’s and my visit to the City of Brotherly Love.

• No, I will not be looking for a new team.

• Yes, I am aware that six runs surrendered in two innings could be considered “pitiful”. Thank you, however, for volunteering to go to your Thesaurus and pass that assessment along while I was drying my hands.

• There were “so many Mets fans in Philadelphia” because that’s where the Mets happened to be on this day and geographic proximity made a visit feasible.

• My team indeed came up short against your team. The score speaks for itself in that regard.

• I do not agree it was “quite a game,” but I can understand your interpretation of the events as such.

• Your sentiment, if sincere, that it’s a “shame” the Mets are not playing well because you’d like to see the “rivalry” retain a certain level of intensity betrays, I believe, your unhealthy obsession with New York. We don’t particularly care about this matchup when we’re not playing your team. And except for pondering its historical significance every Fourth of July, we don’t think about your city whatsoever.

But I will admit, after spending an afternoon in your company, I do find myself, for the first time since the 1996 World Series, feeling kindly toward the Atlanta Braves. If it can’t be us for the division title — and I now know it can’t — I really and truly want it to be them.

Because I sure as hell don’t want it to be you.

Don’t be fooled by the headline on this fine Jesse Spector piece in the News. It’s really about Doug Flynn and it includes a little perspective on the great Met defensive second baseman from yours truly.

49 comments to No Shadow, Only Doubt

  • […] This post was mentioned on Twitter by You Gotta Believe!, Greg Prince. Greg Prince said: Shadow of doubt that #Mets' 2010 is over was eclipsed by reality at Citizens Bank Park Sunday. […]

  • Well-Meaning Phils Troll

    Greg – While I certainly understand the disappointment and disgust you’re feeling (I’ve been cheering on the Phils for 27 years; I understand ALL TOO WELL…) and I realize I’m the last person you feel like hearing from now, but I nevertheless must voice my disappointment with the level of bitterness in this post.

    As I said, the circumstances excuse it somewhat, yet I cannot believe you’re being 100% accurate in your recounting of your experience yesterday at CBP with regards to the Philly Phaithful.

    While it’s clearly a case of a combination of unfortunate timing and you being in no mood for jovial ribbing, I can’t imagine the majority of the comments you were subjected to were intended as anything more than the expected ball-busting of a division rival. The gentleman who asked you the (unoriginal and frankly lazy) question of why there were so many New York fans at the Bank knew full well that the answer to that question is the same reason why Mets fans have always been in attendance when our two teams meet in South Philly, be it the Bank or the Vet. It’s the same reason we – and I’m sure the gentleman in question as well – find ourselves at Citi Field when the two clubs meet 90 miles North, just as we did at Shea before it.

    The other comments (the “pitiful” inning, the search for a new team) were simply a jibing volley intended as an attempt (albeit and awkward one) to engage you in conversation. I’m sure on previous visits to our fair park that were less disheartening, you MUST have responded more jovially to similar comments and that a worthwhile, good-natured and interesting baseball conversation (one packed full of chain-yanking, to be sure) ensued.

    If not, then I feel sorry for you, because when I’ve found myself in conversations with followers of our Northern Enemies, they more often than not have been fun, friendly and in the spirit of an enjoyable rivalry. Most importantly, however, they’ve been imbued with a clearly-evident love and respect for the game shared by both groups of fans. The same has been true when I’ve smiled and taken the taunts I’ve received at Shea and Citi in that same spirit, returned fire and then engaged in baseball discourse.

    But probably the most clearly petulant bit of your piece came last and it was the most disheartening since I’ve never known this site to subscribe to such negativity.

    1st – “Your sentiment, if sincere, that it’s a ‘shame’ the Mets are not playing well because you’d like to see the “rivalry” retain a certain level of intensity betrays, I believe, your unhealthy obsession with New York. ”

    I’m sure the sentiment IS sincere, as my Met friends and I have often expressed the same regret. It stems not from any ‘obsession,’ but rather from a happenstance of divisional breakdowns and geography. We’ve long believed that due to our cities’ proximity and the notorious passions of both teams’ fanbase that the Phillies/Mets could-and SHOULD – be the Yankees/Sox (spit!) of the National League. Yet by a cup of chance, save for a few overlapping years here and there, neither club has been good at the same time for any sustained stretch. We don’t want to beat the White Sox or Tampa in the World Series. We want to beat the Yankees or the Red Sox. We don’t want to beat the Braves for the Division. We want to beat the Mets. Not because of some perceived obsession, but rather because… well… who gives a shit about the Bravos? The Nats & Fish? REALLY?

    2nd – “We don’t particularly care about this matchup when we’re not playing your team. And except for pondering its historical significance every Fourth of July, we don’t think about your city whatsoever.”

    Now you’re being petty and dishonest. I know you do, in fact, care about this matchup. I read the New York blogs, just as I read every team’s blog. No, not just for the shadenfreude, but because I – as I know you do – love the game of baseball and I’m not satisfied with simply knowing the ins and outs of my own team. I’m not content just catching highlights and recaps on MLB Tonight or watching the occasional non-Phillies game on Extra Innings. When my team is entering into a series, I want to know all 25 (or 40 as the time of year dictates) players that will be gearing up against my guys. This is a game in which following along with the strategy and trying to predict managerial moves can be just as enjoyable in getting caught up in the flow of an inning.

    Since the Phillies became a winning club with this current core, they’ve been a frequent focus of attention and ire by virtually every fanbase in the NL at some point during the season if the blogs are to be believed, and yet it’s different with the Mets. We could be two weeks removed from our last Mets series with another three weeks until they next meet, and yet the Phillies are CONSTANTLY referenced in every manner possible from hatred, envy, anticipation and begrudging respect (but mostly hatred) on Mets blogs the internet over, be it Amazin’ Avenue, Metsblog, Metstrodomus…. take your pick.

    This is not bragging. The Mets are treated with the same intensity and focus on Phils sites.

    This is not intended to rub salt in a fresh wound or to be contrarian… I simply felt the need to point out that this particular post falls short of the normal perspective and intelligence I’ve come to expect from your postings. Again… it’s a bit understandable considering your justifiable mood… I’m just a little surprised and disappointed as I’ve come to expect better.

    Cheers, brother. Take it from a diehard with 10,000 losses: This Too Shall Pass.

    • Well Meaning, if you and I are at a game together, I’m sure it will be jovial. As for yesterday, I stand by my reporting.

      • Well-Meaning Phils Troll

        It absolutely would be… provided of course you take as good as you give with regard to ball-busting. That’s actually how we relate in all aspects of life. It stems from the City’s deep Irish population, I think. Not so much with the touchy-feely and mutual respect for us. Affection is shown through mockery.

        There was a Met fan sitting two seats down from us on Sunday, though. And aside from the early barbs, we did talk some baseball. I made it known, for example, how I dug that Dickey guy (and this was even prior to him getting blown up) for his manner of speech, how he carries himself, and of course an affinity for knuckleballers. We also talked about Davis and how I like his attitude and could see him being a high ceiling player.

        We’re good people, we just make you return our fire a little before deciding your worth chewing the fat with.

        • Not part of Sunday’s narrative, but perhaps to be woven into the CBP Flashback (spoiler alert!) is that as my wife and I lingered over various exhibits on the Hall of Fame Club level on our way out, we met an older gentleman at the Shibe Park/Connie Mack Stadium model. He began to tell us what it was like there, and I loved hearing about it. We were engaging back and forth and I was not tempted to blurt “1964!” at him. He didn’t mention 2007 — or 6-5 — either.

          Love baseball communication across the aisle. Not huge on the ball-busting, mockery, returning of fire and all that.

          • Well-Meaning Phils Troll

            “Older Gentleman” was probably the key there, though. I doubt if I’m lucky and mobile enough at 70 to be taking it games that I’ll be throwing a couple back in Lot M before the game giving shit to the guy in the vintage Wright jersey making his way to the gate.

            Also, the hall of fame (both the exhibits in the club level as well as the Memory Lane out behind the batter’s eye – which, incidentally, is really cool if you’ve never perused it) is a different matter… there’s a level of reverence there that would preclude any but the most ignorant, johnny-come-lately fan from talking trash there… then again, those “fans” never make there way to those sections, so you’re pretty safe. I’ve seen NY fans touring Memory Lane from atop Ashburn Alley and would never and HAVE NEVER interrupted them while doing so.

            I’ve just always found that usually the best conversations have started as I was making my way towards Utley’s Corner in Citi and a Mets fan would yell “Philthies F-ing Suck!” My response is to turn, smile and say something equally stupid back and then a handshake and a few words later we’d be talking baseball. That’s the same sort of thing that goes on at the Bank. If, however, the subject of the taunt turns and gives a look like they smelled something rotten, that’d be the end of it. The feeling would be, “oh, well THAT guy’s no fun….” and nothing more would be said.

            As for the commenter who mentioned a child being mocked… That’s not right (unless the kid instigates it, heh) and we don’t claim fans who pull that crap. Matter of fact, the Rockies at Phils series a couple of weeks ago had a rain delay and there were two kids no older than 10 in the Tulo jerseys who were loud, forceful and knew their stuff. They were the hit of the outfield 100 section. They got applause when they came back down to the seats after the rain stopped.

            The “fans” who get the national attention for mocking children or throwing up on a cop… they’re not baseball fans. They’re the unfortunate side-effects that come with winning seasons and sell-outs. They haven’t come to see a game, they’ve come because the ballpark is now “The scene.” Also, that jackass was from Jersey. So was Sprinty McTaserpants. Come to think of it, that’s a bit of a chronic problem. I swear, if we could set up some kind of Gaza-like checkpoint system on the Ben Franklin and Walt Whitman bridges, we’d all be happier phans, trust me….

          • FWIW, most of the interaction described from Sunday was at the hallowed HOF level, including fellows who came over to our area (the 14-year-old’s birthday party) and couldn’t wait to let us know the Mets were losing. Spanned the age spectrum. Nobody, however, threw up on anybody.

            I did get a kick out of the gentle “good game today” from a CBP employee (judging by golf shirt and credentials still danglling) we encountered while changing trains at the City Hall stop. Most Citi Field employees, I’m guessing, have no concept of whether the Mets won or lost a given game.

  • HardToBelieve

    “We don’t think about the Phillies except when we play them, and I’ll prove it by rooting for our supposed real rivals in Atlanta.”

    Let me guess, you’d also sell us the Brooklyn Bridge cheap after we buy this post?

    • Buy what you will, but somewhere along the way yesterday I briefly retroactively reconsidered my temporary allegiance in the 2009 World Series. And if I can be moved to, even for a second, think, “I should have rooted for the Yankees,” then nothing is impossible.

  • kd bart

    I feel your pain, Greg. As a Met fan who lives in the Atlanta area, who has relatives and friends who are Braves fans and can’t stand the front running ways of the Atlanta media and fan base, I normally would never root for thwe Braves to win anything. Philly fans could make me change my mind in regards to that. By the way they act, you’d never know that the franchise, for the most part, was a giant ball of suckitude for the first 120 years of its’ existence. It’s like Red Sox fans on steroids.

  • HardToBelieve

    We all know that the Phils have had a better record than the Mets since both teams have been in existence, right?

    48 years, small sample size.

  • Inside Pitcher

    Greg – thanks for your company yesterday. And nice quote in the News!

  • MyFavBaseballSquadron

    We also know that the majority of the difference in those records comes from the first few seasons when the Mets were still, for all intents and purposes, an expansion team.

    And that if you compare the two franchises during their respective first 48 years of existence they have a very similar winning percentage.

    And that it took the Phillies 33 seasons to reach their first World Series and 98 seasons to win their first.

    And that the Phillies have postseason droughts of 15, 27 33 and 36 years while the Mets longest is 14 years.

    And that the Phillies have 14, 100 loss seasons to the Mets 6.

    And that 6.5 games ahead with 12 to go in 1964 is worse than 7 ahead with 17 to go in 2007.

    I fully concede that at the moment the Phillies are a better constructed team and have been for the past 3, coming up on 4 seasons. Yet to assert that they have been a superior franchise in the context of the Mets and Phillies coexistence and throughout the history of their own franchise is a view that is gleaned through a very peculiar prism.

  • Thomas

    I like how it’s only the Philles fans who have a corner on obnoxious behavior. There are certainly no Mets fans who have acted like that when their team is doing well, right?

  • Rob D.

    Far be it for me to speak on behalf of the post’s author, but I KNOW what I see EVERY TIME I see the Phillies (and I didn’t feel this way and still don’t, with the Braves)….

    That should be us…

    …..and there’s no earthly reason why it shouldn’t be. It should be us with 3 straight division titles and then maybe if that happens, 2009 isn’t a wasteland, maybe the Mets draw on some championship karma and don’t give a damn…..they know whoever they run out there is going to win. And that’s the damnation of Omar. When you look at the Phillies and Red Sox and see how decimated those 2 teams have been, and they’re both competitive and winning..sorry..Omar no longer gets a pass on 2009. He based his whole “plan” on “stars”..and when they went down, had no “Plan B”.

    That, my friends and fellow Met faithful, is shitty management defined.

    • Phan decorum issues aside, the Phillies methodically built a great team over the past decade while the Mets lunged at a dozen different philosophies. The results show.

      • Matt from Sunnyside

        That, and the Mets had lots of injury problems with their starting pitchers in 2009. The Phillies have been pretty lucky so far with their starters (Jamie Moyer’s recent injury aside).

        Sorry, had to interject that. I’m getting sick of announcers and columnists heaping praise on the Phillies for holding things together this year despite brief stints on the DL for Victorino, Utley, Howard and Rollins. That’s nothing like what happened to the Mets last year. In 2009, Santana, Niese, Nieve, Perez, Maine and even Tim Redding either had season-ending injuries or extended stays on the DL. That’s on top of Delgado and Reyes being out for the season in mid-May, and Beltran being gone from mid-June through September.

        I just don’t see why everyone in the New York media is so impressed that the Phillies can win games in which they’re down one or two all-stars, and Halladay, Hamels or Oswalt are pitching.

  • Rob D.

    BTW, Phils Troll, I totally appreciate your well written POV, but truly, pre-2007, there WAS NO RIVALRY with the Phillies. There may have been in Philly heads, but none in NY, I can promise you that. Honest to God, I never spent one waking moment of my Met fandom (from 1970 on) thinking about the Phillies as anything more than an NL East foe to be overcome). It was the Pirates, Cardinals, Cubs, and Braves. Trust me on that.

    • Well-Meaning Phils Troll

      That’s sort of my point though… the Phils weren’t concerned with the Mets from 77-80, either. It was the Buckos in the division, the Dodgers in the league. It’s never BEEN that rivalry because they had non-concurrent periods of success. The comment Greg was hearing – the sentiment of which I share – is that this SHOULD be a better rivalry. It has everything… Passionate fans, high-payroll teams, geographical proximity… EVERYTHING… except teams simultaneously playing good baseball.

  • HardToBelieve

    OK, let’s throw out the 60’s, the Mets’ first few years.

    Since 1970, Phils have had a better record than the Mets.

    Want to talk more recent years?

    Last 20 years, Phils better record than Mets.

    Last 10 years, same thing.

    Pretending it’s all about the early 60’s is revisionist history.

    • MyFavBaseballSquadron

      Trust me. I’m sure many Mets fans that have been around since the beginning would love to revise most of the 1960’s too. Well maybe not 1969.

      And telling us that we’re revising history by handicapping the Mets because of the 1960’s, then proceeding to compare the two teams in 20, 30 and 40 periods is revising, or even worse ignoring the Phils 1883-1961 wining percentage of .4504 with only 2 WS appearances.

      • HardToBelieve

        Just thought it fair to compare the years the Mets and Phillies have both been around.

        Phillies have tons more wins than the Mets if you insist on going back to the 1800s.

  • I have to admit, I’ve been to two games in Philly in the last few years, and the fans have been pretty obnoxious to me, not good natured at all. The thing is, in New York and Boston we have baseball fans, in Philly – just Philly fans. It’s a small minded approach to enjoying a ball game.

    • Well-Meaning Phils Troll

      Sorry for all of the responses, but I have to take issue with this as well. I don’t throw the “ignorant, unknowledgeable fans” or “not real baseball fans” comments around as a matter of course like a lot of people do. I may have issue with certain breeds of Mets fan, but I wouldn’t call them bad baseball fans or compare them to Florida. Matter of fact, another reason I think the rivalry should be stronger is because both cities boast two of the “smartest” (I’m talking knowledge of the game here…) fanbases going, along with St. Louis, Boston (though I hate to admit it) and a few select others. Of all of the stereotypes Phils fans are saddled with (some of which VERY deserved, don’t get me wrong…), the one that annoys me the most are when national media types are shocked when we show baseball decorum or an understanding of and respect for the game.

      “Are the PHILADELPHIA fans applauding Dice-K as his no-hit bid came to an end?” Yeah, asshole, we are. We’re damned glad it was broken up, but that’s no reason not to acknowledge the accomplishment.

      “This is ridiculous… That’s the loudest cheering I’ve ever heard for a 2-out walk that didn’t result in a run… they just got louder and louder with each pitch.” Yeah, idiot… it’s because it’s the NLDS and Brett Myers just fouled off heater after heater and worked a walk off of CC Sabathia. Even had it not rattled him enough to walk Jimmy on four pitches and then give up a grandslam to Victorino, our Number 2 was battling one of the most dominant pitchers out there and at the very least was driving up his pitch count.

      True, we support our home teams to an unhealthy level of zealousness, but that doesn’t indicate a lack of knowledge or respect for the game… quite to the contrary, in fact, I think it’s encouraged it more.

  • Rob D.

    @Steve: I went to CBP during the height of the 2007 collapse (the game where El Duque shit the bed and the Mets came all the way back, only to have Wagner blow an 8th inning save). I must say that we sat behind some rowdy Philly fans and all we could do between chugging beers was high five each other and say what an amazing game it was. Had no issues after the game either. Much good natured ribbing. Granted, that was one time, pre Philly “holy shit, we’re really good” mentality, but I had to throw it in there.

  • kd bart

    Think of 2010 as 2005 redux. The 2005 was 8 games over .500 and 4 games out of first in mid August before hitting a tailspin, they lost 16 of 20 while scoring only 59 runs, that sent to 4 games under.500 and 12 games back. They did recover enough to finisg strong, winning 11 of their last 14, to finish 83-79 and set the stage for 2006. I believe the last couple of weeks of 2005, where they didn’t totally fold, gave them the confidence for 2006. If they can finish strong over the last 51 games, 28-23 or 29-22,and win 83 or 84 games, how many of us really thought they were better than an 85 or 86 win team going into the season?, while breaking in a younger lineup, it will give them a boost going into next season as they’ll know if they’re set at certain positions going forward and can shed some older dead weight.

  • Kevin

    the philly fan discussing records should actually have looked up the records before speaking mr hard to believe. total wins by decade

    2000 – Present 870
    1990 – 1999 767
    1980 – 1989 816
    2000 – Present 912
    1990 – 1999 732
    1980 – 1989 783

    so actually the mets win 2 of the 3 decades, and if not for the disastrous 2009 would have likely won all 3 decades. check your facts before opening your trap.

    • HardToBelieve

      Sorry, by last 10 and 20 years I wasn’t comparing the 10 years between 1980 and 1989 and the ones between 1990 and 1999, but actually the last 10 years and the last 20 years.

      Phillies won more games in the 70s too. Don’t know if there’s a bad season you’re allowed to throw out ala 2009, though.

  • Dak442

    I have seen both at CPB – good-natured ribbing and over-the-top assitude. As you might imagine, the latter overwhelmed in forming my opinion of the place. Particular standouts were the heroes who asked my Wright jersey-clad then-12-year-old daughter if Wright “still sucked dick”. Being so young she only thought to yell “You do!” at them as they walked away chuckling. I wasn’t present for that episode, sort of like the tough guys who threw bits of food at my sister and her girlfriend while I was on an extended walking tour of the park. As is usually the case with bullies, when I returned and confronted them, they slunk away like pansies.

    Great ballpark, lots of shitheads inside of it.

    As Rob D. attests, New York rarely paid Philly mind until recently. And I had lots of first-hand experience with Philadelphia’s NY obsession/inferiority complex, having gone to college with loads of Philly guys and gals. We New Yorkers were like “What’s wrong with you people?” We had never given the Phillies a second thought (and barely noticed the Eagles) as we always had more formidable rivals on our minds, while they were frantic in their hatred for all things NY.

    I have only seen one other fan base as ungracious and unable to enjoy their success. Unfortunately, I live among them.

    • mikeski

      Great ballpark, lots of shitheads inside of it.


      As Paris is to the French, so is CBP to Phils fans.

    • Well-Meaning Phils Troll

      You guys really need to stop with this “inferiority complex” stuff. This has nothing to do with the CITY of Philadelphia wanting to be the CITY of New York. The only thing close to this is that we find the “Superiority” complex of a lot of New Yorkers annoying and unwarranted. Think about it… just the way you’re speaking… you sound like the same smug Yankee fans you bemoan.

      I don’t want to be New York, don’t want to live there and wouldn’t trade my city for it. I have no big issue with New York… matter of fact I love its history and architecture. However, I don’t want it to be my city. The reason you may perceive some resentment from Philadelphians is because the vibe we get from New Yorkers is that for some reason we SHOULD.

      The only TRUE inferiority complex we suffer from is a sense of envy and resentment towards sports teams (not cities) – ANY TEAMS – that are better run and more successful than our historically GODAWFUL clubs. Thankfully, lately – and hopefully for some time to come – the Phillies have changed course, built a winning organization and have shown themselves willing to reward supportive fans. The vast majority of us do NOT take that for granted and we constantly remind ourselves of our current good fortune. You’ll have to forgive us if we, from time to time, come off as smug bastards. It’s not something we’re accustomed to and it can be a little intoxicating.

      One particular thing I’m a bit proud of, however, is that we have not given Cubs fans shit. Prior to the Red Sox (spit!) ending their drought, there had been a sort of camaraderie/commiseration between Cubs/Sox/Phils fans. The Sox won, killed a couple people while celebrating and then became obnoxious douches. SURE we’re obnoxious douches to division rivals… that’s sort of expected of us. But we’re pretty careful not to turn on our former cellar-dwelling perennial losers. “We’re not Boston” had been a bit of a mantra, actually.

  • Rob D.

    @dak: you wrote: I have only seen one other fan base as ungracious and unable to enjoy their success. Unfortunately, I live among them.

    Ain’t that the truth!

  • Ryan

    I wished it farther than it flew, but even in the Citizens Bank bandbox, wishes and fly balls can only travel so far.

    One thing I wish to point out that despite its relative smaller size compared to Citi Field, Citizens Bank Park is *NOT* a bandbox. It ranks as 17th in MLB this year and has regularly ranked in the middle of the pack in Park Factors. While it may allow more HR than average (9th in MLB), it has a lower hit and triple rate than Citi Field, and the same exact double rate. The myth that CBP is a bandbox is extremely played out and needs to end.

  • Tom in Sunnyside

    As someone who has relatives in the Philadelphia area who emigrated from NY, the best Philadelphia area sport fan is the one who roots for teams from Pittsburgh or Baltimore. The others merely use sports as an outlet for their insecurities. This is a city that used to have a judge and court room in the old Vet to expedite drunk and disorderly fans.

    Oh, and by definition a band box is too small to have more than a modest number of triples, even with a healthy Rollins running the bases.

  • metsadhd

    Again I beseech thee, you and Jason have the brains and audience to lead the fan insurrection.

    Off we the Wilpons’ heads.
    Can’t we at least convince them to have dollar suds and dogs nights?
    Can’t the Wall Street hot shots in our fanbase propose to them a fan based ownership transfer a la the Packers?

  • metsadhd

    Sorry about my mis-spellings but see my name.
    Couldn’t we have Megdal or one of you be placed on the Wilpons’ board of directors for transparency purposes.?
    In the immortal words of my beloved first born, don’t piss on my leg and tell me it is raining.
    Talk about the gang that couldn’t shoot straight.
    Tell Jimmy Breslin there is another Pulitzer to be had in the telling of Setting Sun King and his not even close to the minors son.
    Remind me next time to be born mega rich.
    We as a fan base should enter into a class action sexual harassment suit for the Wilpons are constantly screwing us.
    Okay I know that aint original but these people are draining the very life forces out of your’s truly.

    • We as a fan base should enter into a class action sexual harassment suit for the Wilpons are constantly screwing us.

      These might be the words that spark that insurrection.

  • Metsadhd

    To the ramparts then Greg mon frere
    To the ramparts

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